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Thread: Sistem turbo - Probleme, intretinere, modificari

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    Sistem turbo - Probleme, intretinere, modificari

    Salut, am si eu o intrebare: la Peugeot 307 de la ce turatie intra turbina? Eu cred ca am chip-tunning ca de pe la 1100-1200 rpm imi intra si am un cuplu impresionant. Masina are 58000 km si merge super bine fara probleme majore. Bafta.
    Last edited by Cristi_M.; 02-05-2012 at 09:40 AM.

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    AGO's Avatar
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    in principiu de pe la 1750... Parca asa... Sau de pe la 2250... Nu mai stiu exact, dar oricum nu de la 1100 sau 1200...

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    Eu o simt ca intra pe la 1700/1800

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    nitrometan's Avatar
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    Sal,turbosuflanta isi intra in regim de la 1500rpm dar asta in functie de sarcina.Deja la 2200rpm cu pedala la fund ai presiune la maxim.Chiar daca turatia motorului creste,presiunea de supraalimentare ramine constanta,fiind controlata mecanic sau electronic.daca nu scoate fum cind dai pedala la fund in treapta a treia pe la 1500rpm n-ai "chip".
    Toti gresim,dar e bine s-o facem cit mai rar posibil...:P

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    godaro's Avatar
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    nu prea inteleg cum sta turbina pe loc inainte de turatia "X" si incepe sa functioneze peste X rpm. si adicatelea cum, daca eu ii dau in gusa pe autostrada la 4000 RPM si scot din viteza (relanti) turbina aia se opreste si reporneste atunci cand ii dau talpa?. sau ce IARNA (!!!!&#33 cand pornesc de pe loc credeti ca turbina STA si ma ASTEAPTA pe mine cumintica sa ii dau talpa ca sa inceapa sa se invarta !!????

    FALS oameni buni !

    turbina "intra" de cand pornesti motorul si functioneaza pana opresti motorul. aaaa, ca functioneaza in diverse regimuri de turatie si are un anume randament in anume plaja de turatii, este o alta discutie pe care o las in seama celor care stiu mai bine.

    turbina nu "intra" si nu "iese". ea merge tot timpul
    Peugeot 307 1.6 HDI / 2004 a.k.a. "Blu"
    Mitsubishi Outlander 2.4 CVT / 2009 a.k.a. "Mishu"

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    Digital Smoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godaro @ Dec 27 2005, 09:38 AM
    Quoted post
    nu prea inteleg cum sta turbina pe loc inainte de turatia "X" si incepe sa functioneze peste X rpm. si adicatelea cum, daca eu ii dau in gusa pe autostrada la 4000 RPM si scot din viteza (relanti) turbina aia se opreste si reporneste atunci cand ii dau talpa?. sau ce IARNA (!!!!&#33 cand pornesc de pe loc credeti ca turbina STA si ma ASTEAPTA pe mine cumintica sa ii dau talpa ca sa inceapa sa se invarta !!????

    FALS oameni buni !

    turbina "intra" de cand pornesti motorul si functioneaza pana opresti motorul. aaaa, ca functioneaza in diverse regimuri de turatie si are un anume randament in anume plaja de turatii, este o alta discutie pe care o las in seama celor care stiu mai bine.

    turbina nu "intra" si nu "iese". ea merge tot timpul
    Ai dreptate dar foarte putina. Ei vorbesc de turbolag care apare la orce turbocompresor. Ea nu "porneste" efectiv dar pana la o anumita turatie este ca si inexistenta.

    Citez de pe wikipedia:
    A lag is sometimes felt by the driver of a turbocharged vehicle as a delay between pushing on the accelerator pedal and feeling the turbo kick-in. This is symptomatic of the time taken for the exhaust system driving the turbine to come to high pressure and for the turbine rotor to overcome its rotational inertia and reach the speed necessary to supply boost pressure. The directly-driven compressor in a supercharger does not suffer this problem. Conversely on light loads or at low rpm a turbocharger supplies less boost and the engine is more efficient than a supercharged engine.

    Lag can be reduced by lowering the rotational inertia of the turbine, for example by using lighter parts to allow the spin-up to happen more quickly. Ceramic turbines are a big help in this direction. Unfortunately, their relative fragility limits the maximum boost they can supply. Another way to reduce lag is to change the aspect ratio of the turbine by reducing the diameter and increasing the gas-flow path-length. Increasing the upper-deck air pressure and improving the wastegate response help but there are cost increases and reliability disadvantages that car manufacturers are not happy about. Lag is also reduced by using a precision bearing rather than a fluid bearing, this reduces friction rather than rotational inertia but contributes to faster acceleration of the turbo's rotating assembly.

    Another common method of equalizing turbo lag, is to have the turbine wheel "clipped", or to reduce the surface area of the turbine wheel's rotating blades. By clipping a minute portion off the tip of each blade of the turbine wheel, less restriction is imposed upon the escaping exhaust gases. This imparts less impedance onto the flow of exhaust gasses at low rpm, allowing the vehicle to retain more of its low-end torque, but also pushes the effective boost rpm to a slightly higher level. The amount a turbine wheel is and can be clipped is highly application-specific. Turbine clipping is measured and specified in degrees.

    Other setups, most notably in V-type engines, utilize two identically-sized but smaller turbos, each fed by a separate set of exhaust streams from the engine. The two smaller turbos produce the same (or more) aggregate amount of boost as a larger single turbo, but since they are smaller they reach their optimal rpm, and thus optimal boost delivery, faster. Such an arrangement of turbos is typically referred to as a "twin turbo" setup.

    Some car makers combat lag by using two small turbos (like Toyota, Subaru, Maserati, Mazda, and Audi). A typical arrangement for this is to have one turbo active across the entire rev range of the engine and one coming on-line at higher rpm. Early designs would have one turbocharger active up to a certain rpm, after which both turbochargers are active. Below this rpm, both exhaust and air inlet of the secondary turbo are closed . Being individually smaller they do not suffer from excessive lag and having the second turbo operating at a higher rpm range allows it to get to full rotational speed before it is required. Such combinations are referred to as "sequential turbos". Sequential turbochargers are usually much more complicated than single or twin-turbocharger systems because they require what amount to three sets of pipes-intake and wastegate pipes for the two turbochargers as well as valves to control the direction of the exhaust gases. An example of this is the current BMW E60 5-Series 535d.

    Lag is not to be confused with the boost threshold, however many publications still make this basic mistake. The boost threshold of a turbo system describes the minimum turbo rpm at which the turbo is physically able to supply the requested boost level. Newer turbocharger and engine developments have caused boost thresholds to steadily decline to where day-to-day use feels perfectly natural. Putting your foot down at 1200 engine rpm and having no boost until 2000 engine rpm is an example of boost threshold and not lag.

    Race cars often utilise anti-lag to completely eliminate lag at the cost of reduced turbocharger life.

    On modern diesel engines, this problem is virtually eliminated by utilising a variable geometry turbocharger.

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    Va certati degeaba...turbosuflanta nu intra si nu iese!!!!
    "Este un sistem de refolosire a gazelor nearse care creeaza impresia de propulsie a autovehicului" sunt spusele uni mare pilot care nu se afla mai afla printre noi !!!
    Oameni buni cum adika intra la turatia de ...??!!!
    Da ce credeti ca e un motor separat? :laugh: Ea functioneaza non-stop numai ca in momentul in care ii dai gaz si acceptia motorului nu permite ardere completa, turbosuflanta reduce gazele nearse revalorificandu-le, implicit aparand o propulsie spontana mai agila sau mai lenta in functie de cat de multe gaze aspira..
    ASTA E TOT!... :biggrin:
    E cea mai simpla explicatie posibila :laugh:
    <span style=\"font-family:Comic Sans Ms\"><span style=\"font-size:10pt;line-height:100%\"><span style=\"color:#33CCFF\">Crazy car ...with crazy driver&#33;</span></span></span>

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    godaro's Avatar
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    @digital_smoke: prietene, nu vorbea nimeni de turbo lag &#33; te-ai cam bagat aiurea in discutia asta. no offence

    @devorator: vad ca folosesti aceleasi cuvinte ca si mine. cred ca spunem acelasi lucru
    Peugeot 307 1.6 HDI / 2004 a.k.a. "Blu"
    Mitsubishi Outlander 2.4 CVT / 2009 a.k.a. "Mishu"

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    @godaro incercam sa te sintetizez :laugh:
    sper ca au inteles toti :biggrin:
    <span style=\"font-family:Comic Sans Ms\"><span style=\"font-size:10pt;line-height:100%\"><span style=\"color:#33CCFF\">Crazy car ...with crazy driver&#33;</span></span></span>

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    putin cam off-topic: puteti sa-mi spuneti si mie de ce este recomandat sa NU se opreasca motorul imediat ce ai ajuns la destinatie ci sa se mai lase o perioda sa mearga la relanti? stiam ca e ceva legat de protectia turbinei... dar nu inteleg prea bine...
    thx

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    @dogg eu nu am auzit de asa ceva...
    Se lasa in general atunci cand ai tinut-o sus pe turatie ...dar altfel..de ce?... Daca ai tinut-o "hot" cika se lasa ca sa-si regleze admisia de combustibil...eu nu sunt convins nici de asta...dar ma rog :biggrin:
    Poate nu stiu eu asa ca mai asteapta opinii
    <span style=\"font-family:Comic Sans Ms\"><span style=\"font-size:10pt;line-height:100%\"><span style=\"color:#33CCFF\">Crazy car ...with crazy driver&#33;</span></span></span>

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    Parerile sunt imprtite, mai sunt si altii de parere ca turbina &#39;intra&#39; in functiune la o anumita turatie:

    http://www.pejo.ro/forum/index.php?s...56&hl=turbina#

    apropo de ce se spune in topicul de mai sus ar fi interesant de stiut cum se raceste turbina lasand motorul sa functioneze la relanti ceva timp si ce se intampla daca nu il lasi...

    Poate ne lumineaza totusi consultantul tehnic al forumului

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    Dupa forja (masina dusa la turatii mari) turbina este incalzita tare. Ungerea si racirea turbinei se face cu uleiul din baie, pe langa asta ea inca se roteste la turatii destul de mari. Daca se opreste motorul imediat uleiul nu mai ajunge la ea si nu mai are nici ungere si nici racire si apare o uzura mare la axul turbinei. Deci i se scurteaza viata.

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    Digital Smoke's Avatar
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    godaro: Da despre ce credeti ca vorbiti? Turbourile se baga in motoare diesel pentru a imbunatatii puterea oribil de mica a motorului. Chiar de dieseluri scrie in ultima propozitie a textului citat de mine. A citit cineva ce am pus eu acolo?


    dogg: e mai mult teorie decat practica chestia cu opritul. Ideea e sa ii dai turbinei timp sa faca un spindown ca daca tai motorul brusc in timp ce ea inca se invarte la turatii mari e riscul sa apara niste stresuri.

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    godaro's Avatar
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    @digital_smoke: apropo de dieseluri: stii ce misto a fost in grecia? superb. pacat ca saptamana asta vine ploaia si se topeste toata zapada

    cam asta este legatura intre titlul acestui topic si turbo lag
    Peugeot 307 1.6 HDI / 2004 a.k.a. "Blu"
    Mitsubishi Outlander 2.4 CVT / 2009 a.k.a. "Mishu"

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